tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post3664610555541614484..comments2023-12-29T15:25:46.925-05:00Comments on "THE VIEW FROM OUTSIDE MY TINY WINDOW": Post No. 164: Can One Be Responsible and Irresponsible at the Same Time?Inspector Clouseauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comBlogger73125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-65219929690983722252011-05-21T02:50:41.573-04:002011-05-21T02:50:41.573-04:00Oh, by the way I thought the only two things certa...Oh, by the way I thought the only two things certain in life were:<br><br>Death and<br><br>Taxes.Coop's Commentshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17642486904138648784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-79735534740808477262011-05-21T02:50:39.805-04:002011-05-21T02:50:39.805-04:00Sorry for the typo... "rather then" shou...Sorry for the typo... "rather then" should be "rather than"Douglashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09752593286034877538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-58020244665578815492011-05-21T02:50:39.532-04:002011-05-21T02:50:39.532-04:00YawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnYawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwncorfubobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15397160420406462291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-35871321344030940112011-05-21T02:50:39.267-04:002011-05-21T02:50:39.267-04:00IC your last question is hitting the crux of the i...IC your last question is hitting the crux of the issue. ("Should the US govt (or ANY government for that matter) “bail out” the residents and businesses in the storm devastated Southern states?") We are fortunate to live in the most giving nation in the world. Personal & corporate contributions to private organizations to help those in need far outpace what government can or should do. This is the "personal responsibility" each of us has to help our fellow citizens. It is only when we lose this personal responsibility and grow dependent of government that things get out of control (like Katrina). So I guess the question is: Are we replacing "personal responsibility" with a "collective responsibility" that is only manageable by some government bureaucrat?Coop's Commentshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17642486904138648784noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-49040467460987745072011-05-21T02:50:38.384-04:002011-05-21T02:50:38.384-04:00Very interesting. This does give me some food for ...Very interesting. This does give me some food for thought.Jamweshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17941317821226471196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-85753260638112149182011-05-21T02:50:38.070-04:002011-05-21T02:50:38.070-04:00What the problems actually are is not always clear...What the problems actually are is not always clear, but some entity has to try finding out and applying solutions. It is not always possible to quantify in cash terms the benefit (profit) to society of solving problems, and therefore no way to invite investment.<br><br>the difference between income 'earned' and tax collected is not always so clear as you seem to claim Coop. The cost falls on people - who else is there to pay? Do heroin producers for example, EARN their enormous profits? Heroin costs less to produce that sugar. Companies are responsible to shareholders, they can resist paying for things that do not create profit for their own shareholders - the law is on their side. <br><br>In other words there is no profit in many things that communities need building, services that they need providing. There is no 'market' in essential things poor people need. But there is plenty of market for things that are entirely damaging to people and at the same time create a cost to society. Corruption is not the monopoly of bureaucrats/officials, but enterprise can pay for the best brains, BEFORE what's left is taxed. Can you dispute these points Coop?corfubobhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15397160420406462291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-22156164527416750632011-05-21T02:50:37.147-04:002011-05-21T02:50:37.147-04:00On an episode of The Hills:Man: I don't ever ...On an episode of The Hills:<br><br>Man: I don't ever want to have kids.<br><br>Woman: Yes, you do. You just don't know me yet.<br><br>Responsible parenting decisions or irresponsible?Inspector Clouseauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-76533979835896533202011-05-21T02:50:36.759-04:002011-05-21T02:50:36.759-04:00Douglas wrote:"I think the problem is unsolva...Douglas wrote:<br><br>"I think the problem is unsolvable but I think that politicians get a lot of votes playing the game. "<br><br>We love the saying that if there is no solution to the problem, there is no problem.Inspector Clouseauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-77389588122989295422011-05-06T17:51:56.198-04:002011-05-06T17:51:56.198-04:00Our recollection was that the removal of the Abori...Our recollection was that the removal of the Aboriginal children was relatively recent in Australian history. According to the "Stolen Generations" article, the removals took place from 1869 until 1969, although some may have taken place in some local areas in 1970. <br /><br />It reminded us of Coop's comments about having government responsible for certain things on the local level. Should the local jurisdiction, which continued the removals into 1970, been allowed to do so since that's what the local folks thought best?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-34546696515222071672011-05-06T17:07:05.603-04:002011-05-06T17:07:05.603-04:00CorfuBob wrote:
"Production is not everythin...CorfuBob wrote:<br /><br />"Production is not everything is it? Individualism is not everything, strength is not everything."<br /><br />Some would argue that competition is... everything, and the driving force behind evolution.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-74126541155993981872011-05-06T16:37:21.126-04:002011-05-06T16:37:21.126-04:00Douglas wrote:
"I think the problem is unsol...Douglas wrote:<br /><br />"I think the problem is unsolvable but I think that politicians get a lot of votes playing the game. "<br /><br />We love the saying that if there is no solution to the problem, there is no problem.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-39175511537517035412011-05-06T16:31:56.264-04:002011-05-06T16:31:56.264-04:00On an episode of The Hills:
Man: I don't eve...On an episode of The Hills:<br /><br />Man: I don't ever want to have kids.<br /><br />Woman: Yes, you do. You just don't know me yet.<br /><br />Responsible parenting decisions or irresponsible?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-19574083982586418622011-05-06T16:17:40.686-04:002011-05-06T16:17:40.686-04:00Coop wrote:
"Services provided by governme...Coop wrote: <br /><br />"Services provided by government can all be evaluated on a cost/return basis. Corporations employ this type of analysis to every product or service delivered to a customer. There is no reason government can’t do the same. "<br /><br />Coop, there is arguably a simple reason why governments can not function in the same manner as corporations - they are not sufficiently motivated.<br /><br />At best, the electorate will vote out the elected leader with whom it is dissatisfied. The remaining infrastructure of the government continues to exist year after year, after year. <br /><br />When a corporate fails to deliver, it goes out of business. Government don't, and the vast majority of the employees continue to be employed. How can anything really change when changes only occur at the top when governments fail to deliver?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-6525706308759329622011-05-06T15:32:17.049-04:002011-05-06T15:32:17.049-04:00Ah hah... CorfuBob wrote:
"What the problem...Ah hah... CorfuBob wrote:<br /><br />"What the problems actually are is not always clear, but some entity has to try finding out and applying solutions. It is not always possible to quantify in cash terms the benefit (profit) to society of solving problems, and therefore no way to invite investment."<br /><br />Hmmm. "some entity." Sweet CorfuBob, sweet. Hmmm....Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-80174421812684585302011-05-06T15:28:01.812-04:002011-05-06T15:28:01.812-04:00Coop, you provided a very well thought out analysi...Coop, you provided a very well thought out analysis of the potential roles which local, state, and the federal government could play in the environment as we currently know it.<br /><br />However, why do we even need government at all, except perhaps for military purposes? Do we really need national level coordination, cooperation, and regulation?<br /><br />Why not allow the individual states to pursue life as they desire, and let people choose where to live based on the policies and priorities of that state.<br /><br />Some might argue that if we left the choice to individual states as to how they might best handle their local concerns, we would still have slavery, or at least Jim Crow. Obviously, America, as a whole was not ready for integration in the late 1950s and 1960s, and as some have long argued, desegregation was "forced" on America through efforts of a very small activist group, outside of the affected states, and the Warren Supreme Court rulings.<br /><br />Should Jim Crow laws been continued to this day since the individual local states wanted to continue them?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-3186776645549308552011-05-06T15:21:12.005-04:002011-05-06T15:21:12.005-04:00Coop? "Services provided by government can ...Coop? "Services provided by government can all be evaluated on a cost/return basis." I appreciate your response but I beg leave to be abrupt in respect of the above quote. Such a statement will pass many reading this as reasonable, even intelligent, I fear. Sadly it is neither, and I don't propose this as an opinion.<br /><br />The 'cost' of services to society can NOT be 'evaluated' because their value has to be measured both over time, and also in non-cash terms. The 'return' cannot be evaluated for the same reasons. Coop, how would you evaluate the value of taxes on tobacco after evaluating just the cash costs of medicine and loss of labour directly caused by smoking. Leave out the pleasure of smoking and the pain of disease. Western governments have waged a long and hard campaign against tobacco, and reduced its incidence and all kinds of costs as a result. Let's argue that this has been of great benefit to society. Did private enterprise spring to invest in the campaign at the time? <br /><br />I happen to believe that the US can be proud of the range of services provided by private enterprise, but when short-term profit can beat human needs to the resources available - INCLUDING skilled and humane management - what will happen to society? Are we beginning to see in recent US events?<br /><br />IC I happen to know both these dogs, and the one with one eye, three legs and a loud bark is a qualified guard dog. The other is hyper-active and heading for a second mental breakdown. How could you forget to mention these facts eh?<br /><br />You know that dogs - sorry, people come in all shapes and sizes, and society can produce enough wealth to allow everyone to feel human and wanted PROVIDING those with the highest levels of energy, intelligence, and financial ability are not drawn excessively into the sector that produces the wealth, leaving the equally important sector that distributes this wealth fairly (NOT equally, I did not say equally,) without sufficient resources to maintain a healthy and productive society. I happen to believe that private enterprise could run most organisations without producing this growing sub-class of disadvantaged that blight your great culture. Production is not everything is it? Individualism is not everything, strength is not everything. <br /><br />Enterprise needs governing.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15397160420406462291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-65333194278406132532011-05-06T15:16:58.952-04:002011-05-06T15:16:58.952-04:00CorfuBob wrote:
"Human nature exists in a co...CorfuBob wrote:<br /><br />"Human nature exists in a continuum, there are no lines dividing 'types', and the types are not clearly defined."<br /><br />We are in 100% absolute agreement with you Bob. You won't get an argument from us on this subject.<br /><br />However, we seriously doubt that the majority of people in the Universe have this view. Additionally, on a pragmatic level, there is only so much time in a day to assess and evaluate others. Consequently, people are far more likely to "categorize" and "pigeonhole" others for efficiency purposes. It's the nature of animals.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-55292199142148683062011-05-06T15:15:25.405-04:002011-05-06T15:15:25.405-04:00CorfuBob wrote:
"But the important fact is t...CorfuBob wrote:<br /><br />"But the important fact is that modern society can afford to support the weak, and by doing so (without allowing the very greedy to set the rules), will produce an even more productive society. Look at Scandinavia and the Netherlands."<br /><br />While an argument can be made that support should be provided by some source to the truly weak (such as people in wheelchairs), why should those who choose to run 100 mph to generate income and wealth in society have to take care of those who only choose to run 5 mph? (We should note that we frequently encounter people with various physical disabilities who are more independent and capable than those without disabilities.)<br /><br />BTW, some years ago "The Today Show" on NBC did a program on the Scandinavian countries and interviewed some citizens. We will never forget seeing the interview of a middle class citizen who had a university education, good health care, and adequate food to place on his family's plates. <br /><br />His most significant disappointment or complaint? Not having made any decisions in life to achieve or acquire what he had. He wished that he really knew his own personal capabilities and whether he was capable of making good choices.<br /><br />We're not saying that everyone feels that way, but it is an interesting perspective which might not readily come to mind.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-28643906943812432832011-05-06T15:10:58.112-04:002011-05-06T15:10:58.112-04:00In January 2008, newly elected Prime Minister Kevi...In January 2008, newly elected Prime Minister Kevin Rudd made an apology to the Aboriginal people. Here's the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_generations#Australian_federal_parliament_apology" rel="nofollow">link to the reason for the apology</a> and the controversy which ensured.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-20670141309363039822011-05-06T14:48:39.831-04:002011-05-06T14:48:39.831-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-10693093762656105912011-05-06T14:35:33.535-04:002011-05-06T14:35:33.535-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-77667445210222498982011-05-06T13:46:55.900-04:002011-05-06T13:46:55.900-04:00Thanks Coop for your comment about the Aboriginal ...Thanks Coop for your comment about the Aboriginal children in Australia. We thought that it might have been Aboriginals and Australia, but could not quickly find a reference source. However, it also thought that the practice was much more recent, perhaps in the 1960s. Now our curiosity is piqued, and we must investigate this further.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-50747049185839624452011-05-06T13:28:08.145-04:002011-05-06T13:28:08.145-04:00CorfuBob wrote:
"[T]he people who create the...CorfuBob wrote:<br /><br />"[T]he people who create the wealth and the people who employ profits to enhance the markets with schools, hospitals, roads support for the un-employed and un-employable etc. could work together. The top people would deserve to be rich, but what need do you see for the degree of enmity that exists between enterprise and government now? "<br /><br />Imagine two dogs. Dog 1 goes out every day and hunts up food to bring back to the camp, finds materials to make the camp more comfortable, and is constant search for an even better camp in which to live.<br /><br />Dog 2 sits back at home, dictates to Dog 1 how he or she should conduct him or herself on a daily basis, takes a portion of the food without asking, and complains about the quality of the quarters found by Dog 1.<br /><br />Arguably, isn't Dog 2 just a "taker," who contributes little to the pack?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-18972273501112870482011-05-06T13:22:12.411-04:002011-05-06T13:22:12.411-04:00CorfuBob and Coop engaged in a very enlightening d...CorfuBob and Coop engaged in a very enlightening discussion about the roles of private enterprise and government in the lives of citizens in western-industrialized nations, and the extent to which they perform responsible or irresponsible acts.<br /><br />CorfuBob wrote:<br /><br />"Is it not a profound mistake to make so much distinction between Corporation and Government. Both are run by people. Both 'govern' our lives. Both employ greedy megalomaniac psychopaths. Both want to put aside capital for later. (profit/tax) Both ration what the populace can have to live on."<br /><br />CorfuBob, permit us this license since we can't resist. Although we rarely suggest that anyone has "erred," in their thinking, let us borrow a line from one of your comments in response to Coop:<br /><br />"There are profound errors buried in this comment and in [your] questions."<br /><br />We're just being silly; however, on a serious note, there are profound differences, both positive and negative, between corporations (which we will call the private sector) and governments. <br /><br />Although this consists of many generalizations, here is a list of differences between the private sector and the government sector <i>as set forth by one of our loyal readers some time ago.</i> <b> We do not support or endorse any of the positions taken here, but provide them merely as a springboard for discussion</b>.<br /><br />On the private side:<br /><br />1. Some people are willing to work 100 hours per week.<br /><br />2. There is not much in the way of planning for the long-term, since short-term profits are the key.<br /><br />3. The quality of the products produced and services rendered is higher.<br /><br />4. They attract higher quality people with better credentials.<br /><br />5. The bottom line is making more money.<br /><br />6. When they run out of money, although they may borrow some for a while, their days of existence are generally few.<br /><br />7. They learn to run lean and mean.<br /><br />8. They try to look after the interests of a very limited group consisting of themselves and their shareholders.<br /><br />As for governmental entities:<br /><br />1. Rarely are their employees willing to long hours, and generally try to reduce their hourly input / load.<br /><br />2. Since they stay in the same place and position longer, government folks are more likely to engage in long-term planning. <br /><br />3. Government generates poorer quality products and services, because they can not fire people are quickly or easily, and people are not as highly motivated to excel.<br /><br />4. Government attracts people with poorer credentials.<br /><br />5. The goal in government is to provide minimal services, keep a significant number of constituents from getting pissed off, and ensuring the re-election of the elected leaders.<br /><br />6. Government takes money from working people and private sector contributions.<br /><br />7. Government employees have far more job security and can go on performing poorly long-term.<br /><br />8. Governments rarely run lean and mean. Just take a look at the number of street repair workers standing around anytime you pass by one of their holes.<br /><br />9. Government tries to look after the interests of everyone and generally does a poor job of taking care of anyone.<br /><br />Repeat, this is not our list, and we can quarrel about some of the characterizations; however, it highlights significant differences between the two types of entities.<br /><br />We generated a piece some months ago, <i><a href="http://theviewfromoutsidemytinywindow.blogspot.com/2010/05/post-no-146-why-dumping-on-bp-is-bunch.html" rel="nofollow">Why Dumping on BP is a Bunch of BS</a></i>. It fascinates us that society is frequently pissed off at the selfishness of an entity whose primary goal is to make money for itself and its shareholders.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-15375258054133632262011-05-06T13:05:54.872-04:002011-05-06T13:05:54.872-04:00I thought the post was about Katie Couric?
Enough...I thought the post was about Katie Couric?<br /><br />Enough jest. I think we have images that interfere with our logic and rationality. I saw mention of the unemployed as both "unfortunate" and as "lazy". It is true that both collect unemployment and, perhaps, welfare but the problem I thought I was bringing up was how do we tell the difference and, assuming we could, how might we treat them differently?<br /><br />I don't think the welfare and unemployment rolls are filled with ugly people who smell bad and, therefore, cannot get a job. Though I am fairly sure that is the reason that some (a very small number) to be in need. <br /><br />You can be ugly and get a job. Happens all the time. I have worked with plenty of ugly people.<br /><br /> If you are dirty, have bad habits that you do not hide, and a poor attitude, you can wash regularly, learn to hid those habits and suppress the attitude. But will you? What's your incentive?<br /><br />That's where the problem with the government helping lies. Let me try an analogy (or is it a metaphor?):<br /><br /><i>When I was young, my mother would try to get me to clean my room. But she would always clean it if I didn't. So I didn't. Later, my father told my mother not to clean my room, to leave it to me. I still didn't clean it. Because there was no adverse consequence. My room, dirty and slovenly, was ignored.</i><br /><br />Clearly, neither doing for me (bailout, welfare) helped nor did ignoring the problem (because I learned to live in squalor).<br /><br />I think the problem is unsolvable but I think that politicians get a lot of votes playing the game.Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09752593286034877538noreply@blogger.com