tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post1230572308547271915..comments2023-12-29T15:25:46.925-05:00Comments on "THE VIEW FROM OUTSIDE MY TINY WINDOW": Post No. 162c: Should Law Abiding Citizens Be Allowed to Carry their Guns to the Park or Restaurant?Inspector Clouseauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-58917629171485042992011-05-21T02:53:13.685-04:002011-05-21T02:53:13.685-04:00Douglas:We'd have to agree with Anonymous that...Douglas:<br><br>We'd have to agree with Anonymous that who shoots first is a significant issue in a shoot out. We would suspect that if such a law were passed, criminals will appreciate that there will be a higher probability of restaurant patrons or park guest carrying guns and thus govern themselves accordingly.<br><br>We realize that many think that all criminals are stupid, but quite a few members of Congress and people working on Wall Street are fairly bright people.Inspector Clouseauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-69463448227638929502011-05-21T02:53:12.720-04:002011-05-21T02:53:12.720-04:00If an establishment can have a rule that says &quo...If an establishment can have a rule that says "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service", I for one think they should also be allowed to determine not to serve those that come packing.June K. Williamshttp://www.buzzymultimedia.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-1554525360325073732011-05-21T02:53:12.558-04:002011-05-21T02:53:12.558-04:00Douglas, I guess using the 'Wild West' ana...Douglas, I guess using the 'Wild West' analogy was not a good idea.:-) I do think that our tight gun-laws work for us over here and loosening them would just cause more problems. As for the US, I do agree with you! Since you cannot prevent the outlaw from carrying a gun the law-abiding citizens should not have to suffer. Might not be a bad idea to check if the law-abiding citizen is responsible and knows how to use and store a gun. Since I do find guns intimidating I would prefer weapons to be concealed rather than openly carried.wsteffiehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08827545287447040861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-29927585495680142952011-05-21T02:53:12.357-04:002011-05-21T02:53:12.357-04:00Corfubob, you seem to be of the mindset that says ...Corfubob, you seem to be of the mindset that says "Don't anger them, they will just get worse." You are seeing that in Mexico now. Some people are saying the Mexican government's crackdown on the drug gangs is what caused the escalation of violence and won't end the problem. I believe that Neville Chamberlain also took that position in 1938.<br><br>By the way, the Feds (FBI) were not armed at all until the 30's when the bank robbers and other criminals got their hands on submachine guns. Hoover pressed for, and got, the same weapons. Was that wrong? Should they have been denied because it would just encourage the bank robbers to get bazookas or maybe an air force?Douglashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09752593286034877538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-49659044778503550132011-05-21T02:53:12.126-04:002011-05-21T02:53:12.126-04:00The availability of guns for ready use is arguably...The availability of guns for ready use is arguably also an issue that a society should consider.<br><br>What if some of our law abiding guns toters encounter difficult economic times and under the stress decide to rob a convenience store?<br><br>Would they be just as likely to do so regardless of the relative availability of the weapon? Perhaps they might choose to use a gun carved out of soap like Woody Allen in "Take the Money and Run,"<br>or a toy gun instead, but because they have a real one handy, they decide to use it.<br><br>And what about the law-abiding happy couple which lives in marital bliss for a few years, but over time the spouses grow apart and develop significant anger toward one another? Having that gun around would be "handy," especially upon finding the spouse in bed with another person.<br><br>Are there citizens in society who would not otherwise consider acquiring a weapon, but because others are arming themselves, decide they must be similarly armed?<br><br>Wow, this one is really generating some complexity.Inspector Clouseauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-63606716897299506552011-05-21T02:53:11.918-04:002011-05-21T02:53:11.918-04:00Thanks much Douglas.This issue is turning out to b...Thanks much Douglas.<br><br>This issue is turning out to be a really good example of our mantra: "There are more than 2 or 3 ways to view any issue; there are at least 27 TM."<br><br>Two other things just occurred to us to consider in the analysis of this subject. Police officers and military personnel are trained professionals, and yet they make mistakes on occasion.<br><br>Part of their training consists of teaching the brain to quickly distinguish between a friendly target and a dangerous target. <br><br>Additionally, what about the "suspicious" looking person who reaches in his or her pocket to acquire something, or engages in some ambiguous movement or gesture, which is incorrectly interpreted as a threat? <br><br>Do we expect everyday, law-abiding citizens, toting their weapons to the park or restaurant to be similarly trained, or equipped to make these split-second decisions?<br><br>What if the police arrive at the park or restaurant fairly soon after a shootout develops, or let's say that some plainclothes police officers, or even undercover police officers are at the scene, how are the "good guys" going to recognize the "bad guys" quickly enough if all parties have their guns displayed?<br><br>Is there any merit to the notion that sometimes simplicity is the best policy? Or does the exercise of one's rights trump that?Inspector Clouseauhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-25572653288310683872011-04-17T19:21:27.352-04:002011-04-17T19:21:27.352-04:00We know that this was a Hollywood creation, but ch...We know that this was a Hollywood creation, but check out "The Wild Ones" with Marlon Brando and Lee Marvin now airing on Turner Classic Movies. Law abiding citizens, fed up with the conduct of Brando's outlaw biker gang, are arming themselves. However, some citizens oppose this effort. Check it out.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-6218498812171180192011-04-17T09:17:12.111-04:002011-04-17T09:17:12.111-04:00"Handy" is just a degree of availability..."Handy" is just a degree of availability.<br /><br />CorfuBob, we here at the Institute are just neophytes in life; just squirrels in the world trying to get a nut.<br /><br />We long ago realized that our reading public is far brighter, more experienced, more astute, and more enlightened than we....<br /><br />We try to learn by canvassing you folks and doing a little reading.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-35555555997214380692011-04-13T14:47:07.456-04:002011-04-13T14:47:07.456-04:00"Don't anger them, they'll just get w..."Don't anger them, they'll just get worse"?<br /><br />There is a profound and important truth in this Douglas. And HOW privileged we are to live in societies where the law can still take a more tolerant attitude to crime than might easily be the case one day. <br /><br />It's hard to imagine that things would be better if the police were still un-armed, but PEOPLE are demanding, and getting the right to be armed in public. How clever do you have to be to see the difference....Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15397160420406462291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-88527933596352129402011-04-13T14:20:36.958-04:002011-04-13T14:20:36.958-04:00If a gun goes off - whatever the provocation, howe...If a gun goes off - whatever the provocation, however in-control the handler is, the damage is likely to be serious. What is frightening is the ease with which people bring these things into their lives believing apparently that bad things can't happen to them - or just not having the imagination to provide the clues. <br /><br />That you, Inspector, can list a few occasions where you ask if a gun might seem to come in 'handy' is very illuminating. Don't you have enough experience of human nature yet to STATE what dangers you see in a culture where deadly weapons are becoming commonplace?<br /><br />Of course the research has been done, but it will be resisted if it goes against the commercial forces. Oh, and against 'freedoms'Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15397160420406462291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-8645822169542885012011-04-12T08:53:10.411-04:002011-04-12T08:53:10.411-04:00Is anyone aware of any long-term (or even short-te...Is anyone aware of any long-term (or even short-term for that matter) studies which detail either a decrease or increase in crime once a jurisdiction enacts laws permitting law-abiding citizens to carry their weapons in more public locations?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-20680050698709222322011-04-10T23:17:10.371-04:002011-04-10T23:17:10.371-04:00Earlier today, we heard of a drive-by shooting whi...Earlier today, we heard of a drive-by shooting which took place while some youths were having a birthday party. Would the presence of more parents with concealed weapons in such situations reduce or increase the probability of serious injury?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-22333065481864248162011-04-09T21:19:26.277-04:002011-04-09T21:19:26.277-04:00There is simply no shortage of issues which come t...There is simply no shortage of issues which come to mind in thinking further about this topic.<br /><br />Douglas wrote: "We, here in Paradise, have laws preventing us from carrying weapons into sports venues, government buildings, the local post office, bars, and most any place except in restaurants, our cars, and our homes."<br /><br />Why distinguish one place from another?<br /><br />Would it be discriminatory to allow one person to carry his or her weapon in one setting, but not allow another to carry it in a different setting of his or her choosing?<br /><br />If there is some positive, societal benefit associated with allowing more law-abiding, gun toting citizens to carry their weapons to more locations, why not encourage more of them to carry more weapons and permit them to carry them in ALL locations? <br /><br />Wouldn't their assistance be welcomed by law enforcement officials?<br /><br />Is there a point of "diminishing returns" associated with increasing the number of weapons located in any particular confined or open space?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-10510462452018081582011-04-09T12:08:52.571-04:002011-04-09T12:08:52.571-04:00Thanks much Douglas.
This issue is turning out to...Thanks much Douglas.<br /><br />This issue is turning out to be a really good example of our mantra: "There are more than 2 or 3 ways to view any issue; there are at least 27 TM."<br /><br />Two other things just occurred to us to consider in the analysis of this subject. Police officers and military personnel are trained professionals, and yet they make mistakes on occasion.<br /><br />Part of their training consists of teaching the brain to quickly distinguish between a friendly target and a dangerous target. <br /><br />Additionally, what about the "suspicious" looking person who reaches in his or her pocket to acquire something, or engages in some ambiguous movement or gesture, which is incorrectly interpreted as a threat? <br /><br />Do we expect everyday, law-abiding citizens, toting their weapons to the park or restaurant to be similarly trained, or equipped to make these split-second decisions?<br /><br />What if the police arrive at the park or restaurant fairly soon after a shootout develops, or let's say that some plainclothes police officers, or even undercover police officers are at the scene, how are the "good guys" going to recognize the "bad guys" quickly enough if all parties have their guns displayed?<br /><br />Is there any merit to the notion that sometimes simplicity is the best policy? Or does the exercise of one's rights trump that?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-5624586687266120952011-04-09T09:20:11.561-04:002011-04-09T09:20:11.561-04:00Inspector, the worst thing one can do is remain in...Inspector, the worst thing one can do is remain in the house with a partner you have secured a restraining order against. The next worst thing is keep a gun in that house. A recipe for disaster.<br /><br />Still, stabbings are frequent enough and you cannot remove all the knives from a house. People with enough anger and hate will always find a way to express it.<br /><br />But the question you raise is important. Before deciding you should buy a gun and keep it close, you should thoroughly examine your motives for doing so.Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09752593286034877538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-48386490426752310752011-04-08T01:12:48.233-04:002011-04-08T01:12:48.233-04:00S made a reference to "paranoia" in an e...S made a reference to "paranoia" in an earlier comment. In theory, law abiding citizens carrying weapons would do so partly because they anticipate the potential for a crime being committed in their presence or nearby.<br /><br />Some years ago, Time magazine ran an article about how a woman's home was the most dangerous place for her to be from a crime perspective. The article suggested that 1/4 of all violent crimes committed against women are committed by someone they know or love.<br /><br />Let's say that a man and woman are at their wit's end and that they fear violence being committed against them even though they live in the same home. Or consider the relatively common situation where one spouse has acquired a restraining order against the other, but still sleep together at night.<br /><br />Should one partner acquire a weapon to keep under the pillow just in case the other person might do something to them at night while they are sleeping?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-24024316876056952722011-04-08T00:36:50.713-04:002011-04-08T00:36:50.713-04:00The availability of guns for ready use is arguably...The availability of guns for ready use is arguably also an issue that a society should consider.<br /><br />What if some of our law abiding guns toters encounter difficult economic times and under the stress decide to rob a convenience store?<br /><br />Would they be just as likely to do so regardless of the relative availability of the weapon? Perhaps they might choose to use a gun carved out of soap like Woody Allen in "Take the Money and Run,"<br />or a toy gun instead, but because they have a real one handy, they decide to use it.<br /><br />And what about the law-abiding happy couple which lives in marital bliss for a few years, but over time the spouses grow apart and develop significant anger toward one another? Having that gun around would be "handy," especially upon finding the spouse in bed with another person.<br /><br />Are there citizens in society who would not otherwise consider acquiring a weapon, but because others are arming themselves, decide they must be similarly armed?<br /><br />Wow, this one is really generating some complexity.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-42648274568610454512011-04-08T00:25:57.768-04:002011-04-08T00:25:57.768-04:00CorfuBob wrote: "Inspector I meant to say th...CorfuBob wrote: "Inspector I meant to say that shootings are on the rise generally - they're almost non-existant here [Greece]. There is nothing to steal to start with."<br /><br /><br />"There is nothing to steal to start with..." really got us thinking.<br /><br />We have a tendency to lump all criminals together into a monolithic mass. The same probably applies to gun-toting criminals.<br /><br />However, in reality, people commit crimes, and criminals carry guns, for different reasons and under different circumstances. Furthermore, they commit their crimes in different ways with different intents. <br /><br />Consider this: imagine an economic/governance model where people do not want for the basics in life. In other words, consider removing the impetus or motivation for crime on the part of some of a nation's citizens. <br /><br />A pro-active or pre-emptive approach. Would such a government be a more responsible government? If a government or society does not generate enough basic subsistence jobs for its citizens to be gainfully employed, is that an irresponsible government or society?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-89813893019748432072011-04-07T14:59:41.827-04:002011-04-07T14:59:41.827-04:00Corfubob, you seem to be of the mindset that says ...Corfubob, you seem to be of the mindset that says "Don't anger them, they will just get worse." You are seeing that in Mexico now. Some people are saying the Mexican government's crackdown on the drug gangs is what caused the escalation of violence and won't end the problem. I believe that Neville Chamberlain also took that position in 1938.<br /><br />By the way, the Feds (FBI) were not armed at all until the 30's when the bank robbers and other criminals got their hands on submachine guns. Hoover pressed for, and got, the same weapons. Was that wrong? Should they have been denied because it would just encourage the bank robbers to get bazookas or maybe an air force?Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09752593286034877538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-41634171719445684982011-04-07T14:58:00.723-04:002011-04-07T14:58:00.723-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09752593286034877538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-44502586446024239372011-04-06T12:59:47.775-04:002011-04-06T12:59:47.775-04:00"We cannot prevent the outlaw from carrying a..."We cannot prevent the outlaw from carrying a gun into those places where the law-abiding cannot legal carry, concealed or open. Why handicap the law-abiding?" <br /><br />"Since you cannot prevent the outlaw from carrying a gun the law-abiding citizens should not have to suffer." <br /><br />Handicap the law-abiding? In WHAT Douglas? So when the criminals turn to mini-grenade launchers and CS gas the public should be allowed to have them as well? Well, i know you did not mean that, but you are none of you in a position to go back and start again.<br /><br />Wsteffie, Did it escape your logic that criminals are NOT SUPPOSED to use weapons in their crimes, and the police are allowed to have them you so and I don't have to. Actually, I suffer when criminals AND their victims get hurt - but then I'm a bit wierd.<br /><br />Inspector I meant to say that shootings are on the rise generally - they're almost non-existant here. There is nothing to steal to start with.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15397160420406462291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-37365895977847541102011-04-04T18:27:08.147-04:002011-04-04T18:27:08.147-04:00wsteffie, I agree with you. Changing the laws in G...wsteffie, I agree with you. Changing the laws in Germany might not be a good idea. The transition to a looser gun law state might be very rocky indeed.<br /><br />And I agree with June that restaurants, or any place of business, ought to be allowed to refuse service for those who are carrying. It is difficult, but not impossible, to ensure that. It would require metal detectors and security guards but it's doable. Here's the real drawback, though...<br /><br />If a business posts that sign, it is telling the non-law abiding that they will not have to worry about armed citizens. Because, once again, only the law abiding will comply.Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09752593286034877538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-79759951468291601272011-04-04T04:02:03.805-04:002011-04-04T04:02:03.805-04:00Douglas, I guess using the 'Wild West' ana...Douglas, I guess using the 'Wild West' analogy was not a good idea.:-) I do think that our tight gun-laws work for us over here and loosening them would just cause more problems. As for the US, I do agree with you! Since you cannot prevent the outlaw from carrying a gun the law-abiding citizens should not have to suffer. Might not be a bad idea to check if the law-abiding citizen is responsible and knows how to use and store a gun. Since I do find guns intimidating I would prefer weapons to be concealed rather than openly carried.wsteffiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08827545287447040861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-6432191844782823652011-04-03T23:12:16.166-04:002011-04-03T23:12:16.166-04:00June, June, June. It's great to have you back...June, June, June. It's great to have you back. We missed your pithy but cogent arguments supporting your positions.<br /><br />Interesting. There are some Constitutional law issues, of course, since "the right to bear arms" rises to Constitutional status. At the same time, there is a continuing debate about the applicability of that Constitutional guarantee to ordinary citizens. That's the battle that the National Rifle Association continues to wage.<br /><br />But your comment does make one think. Many governments have outlawed cigarette smoking in certain areas, purportedly in an effort to address health and safety concerns. Stepping aside from the Constitutional issues for the moment, could a local government consider the packing of concealed weapons to be a health and safety threat to its business, and other patrons?<br /><br />Additionally, how would a club or strip bar (and let's just assume that they serve food and thus might be considered "restaurants") be able to "search" its patrons as they enter the establishment?<br /><br />Back to regular restaurants, particularly of the family variety, should the restaurants have the ability to search patrons as they enter, or should patrons be required to check their weapons at the check-in stand, or allowed to keep their weapons during their meals?<br /><br />What about restaurants like Chuckee Cheez, which have children as their target patrons. Should the parents of the kids be allowed to bring their weapons, ostensibly in an effort to protect their kids / families?Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2439647783347819362.post-61277997741436164912011-04-03T21:31:38.500-04:002011-04-03T21:31:38.500-04:00If an establishment can have a rule that says &quo...If an establishment can have a rule that says "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service", I for one think they should also be allowed to determine not to serve those that come packing.June K. Williamshttp://www.buzzymultimedia.comnoreply@blogger.com